I have a couple of friends who are palpably distressed by any evidence of physical violence. I'm (obviously) a bit more sanguine about that but I have a similar reaction to violence against the self. The spark of humanity that resides in us all is, to me, something to be guarded and cherished. It is the thing that makes us human, the thing that makes us individuals, the thing that makes us what we ARE.
Objectification strikes at the very heart of my beliefs. So you can imagine my reaction when I read of people who have had experienced a deliberate, systematic, purposeful assault upon their sense of self. To hear of someone reduced to the status of "less than human" makes me snarl. That any person would do that to another is horrific. To do so under the guise of caring drops it to heinous.
But then I look further and find myself reading of people who voluntarily engage in their own self-objectification, people who willingly eradicate chunks of their own being, not even at the request of others but simply for another. In play, these actions would not bother me. To see them in real life, however? Well, I just cannot go there.
There are an infinite variety of flavors out there so I will not say It's Wrong. But I cannot blithely accept it, either. The very thought disturbs me, on multiple levels. It bothers me that anyone is willing to give up their very essence at the whim of someone else. It scares me that there are people out there who would want or expect someone to do that. It baffles me that someone would take that action voluntarily.
Yet I read the words: It's liberating, it's exhilarating, I'm happy to do it...
I am willing to accept that these words are truth for the writers. However, that puts them on a plane so totally removed from mine, it is beyond my comprehension. I cannot think of any persuasion that would let me brave the karmic repercussions of killing my soul. If this makes me a failure as a submissive, so be it. (Although, frankly, I fail to see how you are served by me being less than the most I can be.)
My venture down this road has been taken because this is a fulfillment of me. I am developing the entirety of my "self", integrating the person I am into a more complete whole. It is an enrichment of The Inner Jz, not an annihilation of her.
There would be no triumph in doing it any other way.
8 comments:
One of my biggest problems is that separating what Alpha did and what O has or hasn't. Objectification at first was a fun word game but, for me became very hard. Mostly because of the way Alpha was...always it seemed looking for a reason to punish.
Omega isn't like that and while I don't think he'd make me shun "I" I do often wonder what if he did? Since it does make me feel very submissive following his orders or demands, I lose something yet get something from it all.
I dunno. Part of me does want to just make my Master happy.
Thank goodness he's not asking me to do that...at least not yet.
hugs,
mouse
I don't know if you're referring to the 3rd person speech specifically or if there's more to it, but as far as the 3rd person speech is concerned... at least for me... I don't really feel objectified and I don't feel like I'm losing my "I" so to speak.
I think it would affect people in different ways, and I can certainly see how it could affect some people in a very negative way, especially if they're expected to do it all the time. For me, though, it makes me feel more submissive and puts me in a frame of mind where I'm completely mindful of everything I say and do, which isn't necessarily a bad thing (especially for me).
I think if it made me feel less a person, my Master wouldn't make me do it because for him that's not what it's about. I don't like it simply because I find it irritating. I always forget or get tongue tied. It makes me think too much and I hate to have to think... at the same time, though... sometimes I really need to be made to think. Damn that's a scary thought.
I agree with you in that it's really upsetting to see submissives who are objectified on a continuing basis. Anything that lowers a person's self esteem isn't safe or sane as far as I'm concerned, so why do it?
spirited
Bravo JZ! I feel exactly as you do! To me, objectification strikes to the core - it removes that which makes each of us unique - in essence, the "soul" you speak of. I can't get my mind around it - and as you say, each to their own - but I do FEEL strongly, that unless the relationship is REALLY healthy, REALLY strong and the individuals involved self-aware and with an intimate insight into each other, it is damn DANGEROUS.
I've never even played around with this, much less been asked to incorporate it into my life. But it seems that it should be like so many other things: there is a level of pain, of hurting, of humiliation, of mind games, and there must be a level of objectification, that really is ok. And the level for any of these is different for each person. And like real life, there are those who will take it way too far. In the case of stripping people (in this context vicitims) of their self and their humanity, it happens in ways subtle and not so subtle in everything from grade school bullying to abusive relationships, religious cults, and in wars. I think that this lifestyle must provide some VERY effective tools to carry this out, so, as everyone else has said, an even higher degree of awareness and caution should be used.
my question is this...why do you believe that engaging in this form of play would annihilate your soul? Perhaps for you it would in which case you or Selkie should not play this way. However for others this may be the path to completing their soul or letting it fly.
Now of course I do not mean the situation Mouse was in with Alpha that was abuse. There is abuse in all types of relationships vanilla or otherwise and it is never acceptable.
Self can realized in many different ways and I believe what is important is we explore the ways that work for us and give others the right to do so as well.
Sir J, I don't think anyone dictated that someone could NOT find their fulfillment should they choose in that type of play; JZ and I merely indicated that for US it wouldn't work.
As annihilation of the concept of "self" is, as you point out, sometimes seen in abusive relationships (in and out of the kink world)- I just maintain one has to be DAMN careful.
For me, objectification to an unhealthy degree is one of the ways I believe inexperienced dominants and/or submissives can cause great harm.
Thanks for the input, all.
mouse-
Yeah, I can see how it can be fun if approached as a game, with limited parameters. And as I said, in play, this stuff wouldn't bother me. It's as a lifestyle that I have qualms. Also, altho' I had considered the submissive high you would feel in accomodating the dom, because of my own mind-set, I hadn't considered that it might seem in any way a viable trade-off. Good point, thank you.
Like I said, I'm willing to believe that this works for others, it's just one I have a hard time bending my mind around.
spirited-
There was actually a LOT more to it. There was my conversation with you the other night about FetLife Lady. I was already mid-way through composing a post that expressed my horror at the sub who wanted us all to know how very freeing she found it to be punched in the face. Repeatedly. I was also remembering the sub who demonstrated her devotion to her master by, well, let's just say serving as his litterbox. There are a host of examples of objectification taken to levels I simply do not understand. These were already churning in my head when I came across the loss of "I" post.
You do make a very valid point that I did not define clearly enough. My objections are not for an "in the moment" situation. They center around the 24/7 choices, the ones that alter an entire way of being. And yes, even those might work out, if conditions are optimal, as selkie points out. It's the overflow into everyday life that's my concern.
Nor did I make it clear that I dislike objectification in any arena, not just BDSM. It happens all across the board and I find it equally maddening wherever encountered. Don't talk to the boobs, don't talk to the legs, don't talk to the gender, don't talk to the occupation - talk to the person.
And yes! to your point about lowering someone's self-esteem.
selkie-
Thank you for noticing that I did try to indicate "to each their own". That was the intent behind my statement that there are an infinite variety of flavors but I have the feeling that didn't come through very well, that my discomfort with the thought of undergoing objectification outweighed the attempted caveat.
It is indeed the potential danger of uncurtailed objectification that bothers me. Man (species, not gender) is not a kind animal so I think you need to be very careful about opening the door to this kind of exploitation.
gg-
I agree. The tools are exceptional, indeed. Especially when they're our own used against us.
Sir J-
Well, I did try to explain that I have no objection to this form of play, as play. It's when it's a life-focus that I don't get it. Why do I think that allowing myself to be treated as less than human on an on-going basis would damage my soul? Think Pavlov. Conditioning is powerful. A great deal of caution is required to avoid slipping over the abyss into abuse. And, yes, clearly abuse is all around, not just in one little sphere of the world.
I do regret that I apparently didn't convey clearly that I was expressing only my own reaction. It was never my intention to make anyone think I was throwing stones.
Oh... well in that case I agree with you. I don't get anyone who would want to be treated like that 24/7... especially if you have kids. Not a good way to express yourself in front of kids... it would give them the impression that this is the way everyone should treat each other.
And yeah... having someone constantly treat you that way would have a negative affect on you at some point whether you realize it or not. I mean, if someone tells you you're ugly every day over and over again, eventually you're going to believe it. It can really mess you up.
spirited
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